Category Archives: Interviews

Learn from the many songwriters, pastors, church communications professionals and authors interviewed here on My Song In The Night.

Kristen And Bobby Gilles Featured On Christian Music Blog Podcast

The Christian Music Blog with Nate Fancher has quickly become one of my favorite blogs on the web. Besides the text-based blog, Nate also publishes a podcast episode each Friday. Today, Nate has published a podcast interview he conducted recently with Kristen and me. We were honored to get to know Nate and to converse with him about worship, songwriting, and life. We answer questions like:

  • How we met
  • Plans for Kristen’s upcoming full-length worship record
  • Our thoughts on the state of contemporary worship music
  • Co-writing and collaboration
  • The songwriting and music culture at our church, Sojourn.

and more. You can stream or download here from the CMB website (and read the podcast notes), or subscribe to the Christian Music Blog podcast in iTunes.

My David LaChance Interview: MusaicWorship, Songs For The Book Of Luke

David LaChance headshot -- worship pastor and founder of MusaicWorship, as well as arranger, songwriter, musician on Songs for the Book of Luke by The Gospel CoalitionDavid LaChance (pictured) is the founder of Musaic Worship and staff Worship Leader at Christ Memorial Church in Vermont. He’s also a big part of The Gospel Coalition’s Songs for the Book of Luke worship record: songwriter, musician, vocalist and arranger. Get the inside story on the creation of Songs for the Book of Luke, and learn about the goal of Musaic Worship in my interview with David (full version below — an excerpt appears at TheGospelCoalition.org, entitled Go Behind The Scenes Of Songs for the Book of Luke):

Bobby Gilles: You wore several “hats” in The Gospel Coalitionʼs Songs for the Book of Luke project. One of them is “songwriter,” which weʼll talk about in a little bit. But first, tell me about some of your other roles, and how you came to be involved in this project?

David LaChance: I met Mike Cosper, who produced this project, in 2008. We interacted over the years and in 2011 I came to Louisville for a yearlong project, and attended Sojourn Church. This was around the time that Sojournʼs newest campus (J-Town) was beginning to hold services, and I informed Mike that I was available to lead worship and work with the worship teams while the campus became rooted. Throughout this time Mike invited me to be one of the musicians on Sojournʼs The Water and the Blood album, for which I did a little arranging and co-wrote the title track with Neil DeGraide. The album was a very positive experience that paved the way for my involvement in the Songs for the Book of Luke project.

For the Luke project, Mike invited me to again contribute as one of the musicians but also to arrange most of the selected songs. I played the piano on the album and sang lead on one track. I arranged a majority of the songs, including the choir arrangements. (We had a recording session with a select choir from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and that was a project highlight for me.) The arrangements were designed to be structural placeholders that would allow the musicians to improvise efficiently and give them a “finished” starting point. Some of the arrangements remained intact while other arrangements took on a whole new personality as the musicians began to improvise and infuse their own style.

Bobby Gilles: A lot of people may be unaware of the journey a song can take from “rough demo” to “finished project.” Can you describe that journey a bit, using the example of some of these Luke songs?

David LaChance: There are preliminary questions that I am asking as I begin an arrangement. First and foremost, I want to know what the Producerʼs vision is for the album and then for the individual song(s). Other questions are: Who is the demographic? What is the instrumentation I have available? Who is singing the song, as this determines not only the key but also what instrumentation best serves the vocal tone?

Even though problems with the arrangements are often fixed in the mix, Iʼm trying to achieve proper balances and dynamics in the arrangement as this gives the most natural sound. I connect emotionally with an arrangement that would work in the context of a live performance and so Iʼm assuming others do as well. This is how weʼre wired.

When these questions are answered then itʼs time to face the infamous blank canvas. Musically and lyrically, the song is already leading you to a specific end and itʼs often a matter of simply letting it lead you, while at the same time resisting and going your own way. For instance, you can choose to be impressionistic when painting a landscape, but in the end it still should look like a painting of a landscape. I want to be original, but I want to serve the song and I donʼt want to alienate a critical mass — especially if the music is intended for a broad demographic, which is essentially the demographic of all worship music. This is a challenging balance to maintain and itʼs not always possible.

This project was especially challenging, as it required many different genres to retain their individual identity and yet remain a cohesive unit. Mike and I missed the mark a few times starting out but eventually found the right balance. When we accepted that we were not going to realize every idea we were hearing then we got into a nice rhythm, but this is the very point of the project. We did not set out to make a worship compilation but to work as a worship coalition. The contributors are separate in culture and preference but the end result is unified in its essence. So, it has to be accepted on this basis without any preconceived preferential hopes or expectations about what the music should sound like. Again, itʼs not a compilation album.

This challenge was made easier by my background in film scoring. I am comfortable as a musical chameleon. If the song needs to be framed in bluegrass, traditional or go the route of CCM I find it fairly easy to serve the song, and this is essential in order to avoid what I call the “ouroboros effect” (discovering that youʼve “painted yourself into the landscape”). Your own musical personality will, necessarily, be “seen in the strokes”, but a project that is not your own requires that you be intentional to avoid making yourself central.

When you make your final arranging decisions and begin “putting paint on the canvas” itʼs just a matter of filtering your ideas through the overall vision, using musical and compositional rules as boundaries and working within these creatively. Einsteinʼs rule helps at this stage: “Everything must be made as simple as possible but no simpler.”

As far as arranging with other musicians, when you have the right “heads” two or more are always better than one. The musicians on Songs for the Book of Luke are top notch. It is amazing to watch your “finished” ideas metamorphosize into their second and third forms as different artists interpret your work. The artistic process is fluid. The “finished” product is merely a single frame that is framed and sold as the work itself, and from here many churches will take these songs and continue the artistic process to fit their own context. My hope is that in processing the album Christians donʼt get bogged down in stylistic preferences and miss the forest for the trees.

Bobby Gilles: Tell me about the recording process for this record. What was it like to work with a variety of worship leaders and pastors from around the country? Did they all come to Louisville to record live, as you did?

David LaChance: The recording process happened in two phases. In the first phase all of the musicians traveled to a studio in El Paso and spent a week working off of my arrangments, coming up with variations, deciding to keep the original in some cases and in other cases coming up with entirely new arrangments. In the second phase the singers and some of the musicians traveled to Louisville for a week to track the vocals.

It really is a joy to work with like-minded brothers and sisters in Christ who have the first priority of abiding in truth and then of feeding Christʼs sheep. The body of Christ is a mosaic of different preferences, styles, methods and callings and yet the world knows us by our unbreakable unity despite these broad preferential differences. Because our piece of the mosaic is music, I refer to our group as a musaic.

I appreciate the variety of contexts and age groups represented in the contributors to this project. A group of elitist hipsters or the Nashville machine didn’t make this project; traditional and contemporary contexts that included older and younger generations of men and women serving their local churches were all working together without an attitude that implied their way is really the right way. This is the definition of loving the brethren. This is the love the world witnesses, wonders about and knows us by.

Bobby Gilles: You wrote a song for this record called “Song of Zechariah,” (sound sample here) arranged and inspired by Zechariahʼs song in Luke 1:67-79 (a hymn of praise commonly known as the Benedictus). What drew you to that section of Scripture?

David LaChance: Well, the passage is a well-known song … so I figured there must be an advantage to working with a proven “lyricist.” Joking aside, I like the idea of connecting musically with something in our Christian history that originally contained music.

For the most part, we sing the same notes today as 1st Century Christians so I feel like in some way we are speaking the same language even though we are worlds apart. In a way, music has that power to reverse the confusion of Babel. Itʼs just a little more edifying knowing these very words were also sung, and these are words full of prophetic, gospel truth. Also, I was surprised that I was unable to find a contemporary treatment of the Benedictus and I thought this was a good reason to choose this text.

When choosing a passage, I also keep the corporate application in mind, and in this case it was the ʻalready/not yetʼ tension of the Christian walk. I have attempted recently to convey this tension in my lyrical content, not from the viewpoint of the struggle with our sin (guilt-wrought groveling), which I think is often an inverse of the “me-centered” worship songs, but between the struggles with suffering that results from sin being in the world and of our certain promises of all things being made new in Christ. Because of Christ, we are able to offer praise amidst trials without any doubt that God has saved His people once and for all. Yet we are aware that we are a people who are being saved through defeat in this world, and will continue to groan along with creation for the consummation of Christʼs Kingdom — even in the afterlife (Revelation 6:10).

However, we are not without a firm hope, and this is what I attempt to convey in the song. Even after Christʼs declaration, “It is finished” our song remains a saving plea and a song of praise, or “Hosanna in the highest!” This is summed up and restated in the bridge of the song: “We sing a song of faith, we sing a song of hope, we sing a song of love, and for the sake of love we are saved.” (John 3:16, Romans 8:38-39)

Bobby Gilles: Of course songs in the Bible donʼt rhyme, and they arenʼt structured the way we typically structure our modern, Western songs. How do you decide which (and how many) scripture phrases to quote, which to paraphrase, and how to include new words and phrases in the spirit of the passage?

David LaChance: My lyrical treatment of this passage in Luke is a paraphrase and does not include the second half of Zechariahʼs song explaining the role of his son John. Although I use straight Scripture whenever possible, I think there is a way to say what the text is saying in a way that fits the chosen meter of your song lyrics without having to worry about conveying every detail in the text. In “The Song of Zechariah,” my verses are really a paraphrase of a paraphrase, pulling trigger words out of Zechariahʼs song but living at the macro level, linking his themes structurally with broad redemptive themes.

This macro level writing is most observable in the chorus where I link the content of the verses with Jesusʼ triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Luke 19) using the worship phrase “Hosanna in the highest!” (Mark 11).

And to avoid the situation of a congregation singing something without knowing itʼs meaning, the pre-chorus essentially explains the meaning of Hosanna, “This is all our song or praise; this is all our saving plea”. This is a way to breathe new life into a phrase that borders on “Christianese.”

Keeping the lyrics simple, accessible and loyal to the profundity of the text is the hardest part about writing good worship lyrics. Iʼm coming from a Christian Contemporary Music background and so Iʼm leaning towards a less-is-more approach in worship music, while trying to avoid pragmatism that waters down the gospel or makes the worship service all about the individual experience.

For me, worship with music is about preparing the heart and that is done through stirring the affections. The path to the heart is through the mind (Godʼs Word), but, as a Film Scoring major, I wholeheartedly believe that there is a musical setting for each song that is the most efficient conduit for the truth being sung. A text that is inappropriately underscored musically can achieve diminishing returns; at least this has been my own experience over the last eight years as a worship leader. I have an almost paralleled priority of underscoring the text with the right music. In other words, Iʼm not thinking about the lyrics apart from the music.

Working within a traditional context the last few years, I have grown to truly appreciate the classic hymns, but my CCM background causes me to still shrink away from using archaic pronouns and stuffy terminology. I avoid them when possible because they can come off as “contrived” (if youʼre a hipster) or “out-of-touch” (if youʼre in the traditional vein), but complex terms can be useful vessels to carry a lot of information in a small space. So, if I need to use a term that I think would alienate a majority of the congregation (e.g., Ebenezer) I will explain the meaning of the term in the song itself when writing or within the readings between songs if singing another writerʼs song. Itʼs not an either/or scenario but our aim should be alienating the least amount of people and bridging the gaps where there is potential for alienation.

Some questions Iʼm asking as I go through this process are: 1. Do I have the Scriptural context correct? Am I saying what the author is saying? 2. Have I watered it down for the sake of pragmatism? 3. Do the words sound natural when sung, when read? If not … keep going. 5. Am I using clichés in a clichéd way? 6. Does it initiate a response of worship from me, the writer?

Bobby Gilles: At your site MusaicWorship.com, youʼve posted the demo mp3 of “Song of Zechariah.” Although the melody is the same, the arrangement on the Songs for the Book of Luke record goes in a different direction than some would have expected. How did you light on that arrangement?

David LaChance: My song was one of the only songs we went into the studio with that retained the original arrangement of the submitted demo. So, when we went to record the song, we essentially started out with a blank canvas. At first, we went the CCM route of the demo, but this direction wasnʼt ideal for all of the musicians. Dan Phelps, who played lead guitar on this album, starting playing a Motown style guitar rhythm. The band immediately went in that direction and the arrangement fell into place. The end result is a lot different from my original vision, but the song ended up adding a flare of energy and fun on the album.

Bobby Gilles: Letʼs talk more about your new website. What can people expect to find at MusaicWorship.com?

David LaChance: In the initial phase you will find free MP3ʼs and chord charts of original worship music and a few related resources, some original materials and some links to other material I find interesting or helpful. Iʼve worked on many music projects over the last few years but only one has primarily consisted of my own music, and I see things a lot differently now. I have many worship songs that have been proven in worship services but have yet to be recorded and published.

One of the central goals of Musaic is to get my own music to as many churches as can benefit from them. Each month I will be posting at least one of my songs as a quality demo. These demos will be free to download and will come with a free chord chart. At some point, I will initiate a Kickstarter campaign and will choose either an EP or full- length album format that will consist of the songs that have been introduced at Musaic. Songs will be chosen based upon the most positive response. This album will then be available for purchase at a low price. Then, God-willing, I will start the process over again and hopefully build upon the first stage of Musaic Worship and expand itʼs depth and breadth.

Bobby Gilles: Your bio talks about how youʼve been worship leader of a California Acts 29 church, youʼve been at Sojourn, and now youʼre at a Baptist Church in Vermont that uses a pipe organ and sings from hymnals. How have these experiences shaped and formed you, and how do you bring each of them into play with what you do at MusaicWorship?

David LaChance: In my early days as a worship leader, I had my own vision for how my ministry career would unfold. Thank God it did not happen my way. I took my timeline into my own hands early on, Moses “killing the Egyptian,” and so God graciously “sent me into the desert” so that I could eventually be useful.

I started in a CCM worship context, with the stage, the lights, the productions and from there God lead me to a missional A29 Church in North Hollywood. This context was reacting to the context I was coming from and I learned a lot about the full spectrum of ministry forms in America, the attitudes involved and what I thought was needed to bring the pendulum back to the middle. I wanted more than the centrifugal ministry of Church Growth, but the missional vein was all about centripetal ministry at the expense of the foundation already laid. My summation was that Church Growth built a wall to the outside world (four of them) and the missional movement dismantled the walls, drew a line in the sand but seemed to be crossing the line, confusing cultural relevance with worldly like-mindedness.

From here God lead me to Sojourn, which was challenging at first. Sojourn did not fit into any mold I was comfortable with, yet through my time there I learned how to adapt, how to subordinate my preferences and in the end I came to understand, appreciate and be excited about what Sojourn was doing. Sojourn is an example of bringing the pendulum back to the middle, re-uniting modern worship culture and our Christian music heritage, including the use of creeds, hymns and liturgical forms. Sojourn isnʼt afraid of being associated with a Church Growth model and yet they are unapologetic about the gospel, cultural relevance and pursuing the people in their local communities.

From Sojourn, God decided that I had not been stretched enough and lead me to Christ Memorial Church, a traditional Baptist Church in Williston, VT where my job description was essentially “to make everyone uncomfortable.” I came to help modernize their worship music program within a context of Baptist tradition that uses a pipe organ and hymnals and performs Handelʼs Messiah at Christmas.

I was not brought to VT to fundamentally change anything, not to achieve my own worship vision, but to be faithful with anotherʼs work and adapt to their culture while providing an opportunity for them to lay down preferences for the good of the community. I did not grow up singing hymns. Using a pipe organ without an aim at hipster irony seemed archaic at first. However, this was yet another way God was teaching me to adapt. I have come to appreciate the traditional vein of Christian worship music and, ironically, I now see tradition as a necessary tool for cultural relevance.

Itʼs all of these very different ministry experiences that have shaped the ideas behind Musaic Worship. I have seen the different colors of the spectrum up close but still see too much contextual separation. When all of the colors of the visible light spectrum are combined they create white. True unity in our diversity is the blazing white light of the gospel.

In America, where we are a melting pot of post-Christian racial and political cultures, to attempt ministry that is focused upon one particular context has the potential to dismantle what we are trying to build. We are not facing the same pre-Christian contextual issues as Hudson Taylor did as a missionary in China, and I donʼt believe we have to be this narrow in our contextualization.

In an effort to be inclusive we end up being exclusive. Where the gospel seeks to heal the division at Babel, uniting every tribe, tongue and nation, itʼs easier to keep the separate camps intact. But when we base our ministry context around one particular cultural preference then we promote cultural unity rather than Christian unity. We necessarily end up with a community full of people who look and think the way we do. This is not a peculiar people. This is not triune and transcendent culture. This is secular tribalism.

The world knows us by our love for each other. This love should not occur at a distance, but we are a peculiar people because we are truly united in our diversity. This should be our aim within our own corporate contexts, and through my own experience I believe a transcendent Church culture is possible but extremely difficult, requiring nothing short of the very Spirit and humility of Christ.

Bobby Gilles: I love some of the art (specifically vintage album covers) that youʼve included on the site. How does that represent or maybe play into what youʼre trying to do with MusaicWorship?

Variation of Musaic Worship logoDavid LaChance: Thatʼs a great question and Iʼm glad you noticed this because it has everything to do with the broader purpose of Musaic Worship.

While creating the branding for Musaic I stumbled across an old picture of a formal theatre attendant playing music from a trumpet- horn turntable for a Native American chief. I was immediately struck by the image and thought it is illustrative of the struggle worship leaders face. Yet it is a picture of what leaders and congregants alike should simultaneously pursue and avoid in a corporate context. We should pursue unity in our differences within close proximity and we should also be sensitive to differing preferences and avoid a separatist elitism, always looking for the teachable moment that demonstrates how corporate worship should manifest itself. Depending upon our position on this spectrum, this picture is an exhortation or a warning.

At the heart of Musaic is a call to unite cultural preferences that have become “sanctified absolutes” in the polarized traditional, contemporary and racial church contexts. I understand that our preferences are different, and that these preferences will necessarily guide us to a particular ministry context, but the false dichotomy I am reacting to is musical preference that has become dogmatized, functionally anathematizing the church cultures with which we disagree. And so our striving for unity at a distance, with these attitudes present, makes us guilty of double speak.

My question as I push Musaic forward is this: What does true Christian unity look like, specifically in corporate worship? Again, I think diversity within close proximity is key but I also think that musical preference is at the front lines of our battle for Christian unity.

Luther said that when Satan fell from Heaven he fell into the choir loft. This is why we need to be violently intentional to create a corporate culture encouraging different musical preferences within close proximity. In other words, donʼt have the contemporary worship service apart from the traditional worship service. Again, there is nothing peculiar about this to the world, and where is the opportunity to show true forbearance and love? Itʼs easy to love our own preferences and the people who think and look like us.

In an effort to be contextual, we assume that we should reflect the musical culture of our spiritual music heritage or of our neighborhood. No, we should reflect the diversity of Christian musical culture and within our neighborhood, not assuming that itʼs the job of some other minister with a particular bent to reach these people. (Again, thinking about our neighborhood as a melting-pot of culture).

If the attendant in my picture were pointing the trumpet horn towards another well dressed attendant there would be nothing interesting or peculiar about the picture. Itʼs the merging of the different cultural contexts and preferences that makes this particular picture interesting. So, seeing albums by The Faith Tones, The Rappinʼ Preacher, and the Christian punk band The 77ʼs (on my site) presented as complimentary as opposed to being merely different options seems unnatural, peculiar, and this is the point.

I think we need to make more of an effort to hold this tension in the balance at close proximity in our corporate contexts. This is the very tension of Christʼs nature. We are His literal Body and He is simultaneously the Lion and the Lamb, and when we try to separate groups based on what seems most natural (separating the lion from the lamb) then we separate Christ; and instead of a peculiar people, we form cliques at best and functional cults at worst.

Itʼs a theological aim but is it a practical aim? How does this tension look corporately? Iʼm still fleshing this all out but I see it in action every week in my own corporate context. We have Christian contemporary music and traditional organ/hymnal worship within close proximity. The opportunities for forbearance are bountiful and there is occasional tension but you know what, it looks peculiar to the world and is peculiarly powerful.

I will be saying more about these ideas on musaicworship.com as the project unfolds.

Bobby Gilles: How do you balance the needs of your local church with projects like the website and recordings like the TGC project?

David LaChance: I do a lot of my website work and music work in my spare time, but there is overlap as well. I can be writing a song and making a demo and chart that will be used on the site and used to teach my worship team the song for use in services.

My leaders have also been very gracious in allowing me to work on projects like the TGC album. They see the value in these projects that bless the Church. They see these opportunities as God-given and also as an overlap in what I do for my church community as a worship leader and as the music and media coordinator for the NETS Institute for Church Planting.

Bobby Gilles: What are your long-term goals for Musaic Worship?

David LaChance: I want to make my worship music available to the Church and to have the ideas Iʼve gained through my broad experience be presented so that other worship leaders starting out can avoid common mistakes. I want to hone their sights primarily on feeding Christʼs sheep and exemplifying the humility of Christ to those they serve through laying down their preferences and heeding Paulʼs exhortation to “think of others as better than yourselves. … Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.” God knows what will come of this effort. If just these two objectives are served it will be fruitful.

 

Church Planter Profile: Michael Clary of Cincinnati’s Christ The King Church

Christ The King Church logoOn Wednesday, March 13 Sojourn Network is conducting our next Faithmapping Micro-Conference in Cincinnati, hosted by member church Christ The King. Pastors, worship leaders and church planters will learn how Sojourn Network can help them plant and grow strong churches, especially in the context of Cincinnati, northern Kentucky and nearby cities.

In this audio interview, I talked with Michael Clary, pastor and founder of the multi-site Christ The King Church. You’ll learn:

  • Why Pastor Michael Clary chose to plant Christ The King Church in Cincinnati
  • Why did they launch second campus in northern Kentucky rather than plant a new church?
  • Why should experienced pastors attend the Faithmapping micro-conference?

Listen on the audio player below, or download from iTunes.

Church Planter Profile: Brandon Shields of Soma Church in Indianapolis

Logo of Soma Church in IndianapolisAs many of you know, I’m involved with communications for a church planting network called Sojourn Network. Next Wednesday Sojourn Network is hosting our first Faithmapping Micro-Conference in Indianapolis.

Along with main sessions led by Daniel Montgomery (speaking on vision/leading a church plant), Mike Cosper (speaking on worship) and Brad House (speaking on community/small groups), we’ll feature a Q&A with Indianapolis church planters, including Brandon Shields of Soma Church.

Yesterday I conducted a phone interview with Pastor Brandon, during which I asked him why he chose to plant Soma in Indianapolis, as well as:

  • How long Brandon has been “on the ground,” laboring in Indy
  • What are some of the ways he’s built your core team
  • How Soma’s “Vision Experience” Sundays are building momentum towards the official launch of Soma Church
  • What pastors, planters and church leaders can expect from the Faithmapping Micro-Conference
  • What’s next for Soma Church, and how can people pray for this work?

Listen on the audio player below, or download from iTunes.

Modern Hymns, Doxology & Theology & more: My Matt Boswell Interview

Profile photo of Matt Boswell, songwriter, hymnologist, recording artist, author, founder of Doxology And Theology, and Worship Pastor at Provident Church (Frisco, TX)Matt Boswell is Worship Pastor at Provident Church in Frisco, Texas. He’s led worship and written songs for the better part of two decades, and is a well-known writer of modern hymns. He’s also the founder of Doxology And Theology, which includes  DoxologyAndTheology.com, a website that promotes gospel-centered worship and provides articles and resources from worship pastors, leaders and songwriters around North America. As you’ll learn in this interview, the website is merely the beginning.

You’ll also learn more about Matt’s music, including a new EP entitled Messenger Hymns, Volume One, and his role in the upcoming Songs for the Book of Luke project from The Gospel Coalition. I’ve enjoyed conversing with Matt, listening to his music and learning from him, so I’m glad to be able to bring you this My Song In The Night interview:

Bobby Gilles: Last month you hosted the first Doxology And Theology national conference. Did it meet your expectations?

Matt Boswell: I think from the very beginning of the conference there were evidences of grace all around. Our volunteer team at the church worked effortlessly—praise God for them. We had attendees from 29 different states, and two countries (US & Canada). I was blown away by God’s goodness throughout it.

Bobby Gilles: One of the things I noticed about the conference is that you had speakers from several different networks, different denominations — how did you come up with the list of speakers?

Matt Boswell: From the very beginning I tried to plan a worship conference that I would like to come to. So, I contacted friends from around the country, guys that I learn from. Basically if you look at worship renewal and New Calvinism, I wanted to gather all those voices together.

Bobby Gilles: What is your goal in the future? Do you plan on doing a conference every year?

Matt Boswell: We won’t do a conference every year but, Lord willing, bi-annually.  So we’ll do it on the even years. It’s very similar to what Bob Kauflin does with his bi-annual WorshipGod conference. I want to do it on the opposite years that Bob does WorshipGod.

Bobby Gilles: Are there any other resources that you’re looking to develop under the Doxology and Theology banner?

Matt Boswell: Yes, it will be threefold. First, we’ll do more conferences—under that would be podcasts, interviews, blogs—so that’s all kind of in the resource part.

Second, we’re starting a record label called Doxology and Theology. I don’t know what that will look like eventually. For now, Stephen Miller is loosely affiliated, his new Hymns record has the D&T button on it — Matt Papa will do the same.

Third, books. The first book, I believe the working title is Doxology and Theology: How The Gospel Forms the Worship Leader — I’m not sure if Lifeway will stick with that title. But I want to do many other book titles, from various authors. So it won’t be all my books. It will be hopefully about ten different guys all writing under the same banner all with the same heart and passion.

Bobby Gilles: So you’re working with Lifeway?

Matt Boswell: Lifeway partnered with us specifically with this conference, and publishing the book. It’s undetermined at this point what that will look like with future music and books.

messenger-hymns-volume-one-matt-boswellBobby Gilles: You’ve got a new EP, Messenger Hymns, and I noticed it’s titled Volume 1 so I assume there will be more to follow?

Matt Boswell: This is the first of a four-part series. Each will be six hymns long and each with the doxology. So I’m writing a series of four doxologies. At Provident Church we sing the doxology every week, like the traditional old one. So I’m trying to incorporate very short trinitarian hymns that would all be patterned after the traditional doxology.

Bobby Gilles: You mentioned trinitarian—I love the trinitarian language in “How Rich A Treasure We Possess,” which you wrote with Matt Papa. It reminds me of the trinitarian song you wrote with Michael Bleecker and John Warren, “O God of Our Salvation.” Why do you think there are so few explicitly trinitarian songs in modern worship music?

Matt Boswell: I think functionally a lot of our corporate congregational worship ends up feeling unitarian. We’re scared of the doctrine of the trinity because it is steeped in mystery. Charles Spurgeon says in his commentary on Psalm 96 that

“The sacred fire of the human flame only burns where the trinity is believed in and beloved.”

I agree. I think the doctrine of the trinity informs all other doctrines. It is the self-disclosure of God. It’s progressive through the text, through the Canon. It’s a foundational doctrine for us, therefore we should be singing about the trinity regularly.

Bobby Gilles: I love the work you’re doing in bringing that back in to the church.

Matt Boswell: Isaac Watts included a whole series of doxologies at the end of his Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs. So basically you take those and move words around and you’ve got new doxologies. They’re very easy to write but I think they’re a kind of forgotten song in the Church today.

Bobby Gilles: I mentioned a couple guys that you’ve written with. You do a lot of co-writing — you also wrote with Jennie Lee Riddle on her new project People and Songs, Opus One. When you’re co-writing, are each of your co-writing relationships different or are you primarily the lyric guy, the melody guy or the hook guy?

Matt Boswell: I’d say historically it’s been across the board. Early on I would write with anybody because I was learning to write. As I’ve gotten older, I only write with a handful of people. What I’ve chosen to do is develop those relationships both theologically and on a friendship level and write primarily with those people.

I just started writing with Stuart Townend — that’s a new relationship for me but we work really well together and are trying to write the same kind of songs. I do feel called to write a specific kind of song and it’s not for everybody, so therefore I can’t just write with anyone. What I’m primarily trying to do in song is teach theology — I’m trying to write sermons in song. Not everyone is writing that way. And also in an extremely congregational fashion — so the hymns I’m writing I want my grandmother to love, and I want my four year old twin daughters to love. So I’m trying to write a very specific kind of a song in all the hymns I write.

Bobby Gilles: So when you’ve got that kind of comfort level with your co-writer, I would imagine it becomes a more organic thing because you’re on the same wavelength.

Matt Boswell: Yeah, so for me, doctrinal unity is the most important thing. So if we have that unity then collaboration comes very easily.

Bobby Gilles: Another thing that you do is revise a lot of old hymns, in addition to writing new songs in hymn meter. And you’ve written in the verse-chorus-verse format before as well. Is this a conscious decision to vary your writing template?

Matt Boswell: Early on—when I first met my wife, her biggest complaint on seeing me lead worship was that I did no hymns. This is nine years ago. I felt like traditional hymns were outdated and I attached the same kind of stigma that many people would attach to them. But I learned to listen to my wife.

So that kind of set me on a venture. Also what really solidified my pursuit of and love for modern hymnody was a guy in my church made an offer to pay for me to record a modern hymn record. I said “No thank you,” but a year later he made the same offer again so I said “Yes,” and did the Vintage record. I really had no idea what I was doing at that point. I just picked hymns that I liked and I wrote a couple in that same genre. I wrote “Endless Mercy of God” and one called “Rise Up and Sing” that I don’t even like at this point.

I wrote those for that project and then the more I did that, I didn’t want to sing other kinds of songs. I started not liking songs with choruses and prechoruses. So I tried writing “verse only”. I think it can be confusing to say that “verses only” is the definitive assessment of what a hymn is, although that is a version of what a hymn is. But other guys are writing in a modern format that is “hymnish.” I’m specifically trying to write in a more traditional format, though.

Bobby Gilles: What are you doing here in Louisville? Tell me about this project.

Matt Boswell: As a student of Southern Seminary and at the invitation of Mike Cosper, I’m here in Louisville to work on The Gospel Coalition record The Songs Of Luke. Many songwriters are a part of this project, from many different streams of evangelicalism. We all wrote hymns responding to the Gospel of Luke. I wrote two hymns — Luke 15 with Matt Papa, and Luke 24 with Don Carson. Both of those are on the project and I’m excited about the Church hearing them.

Bobby Gilles: So is this D.A. Carson’s first song?

Matt Boswell: No, Don has written before; just not on a project with this visibility.

Bobby Gilles: Well, that sounds good — so you’re sort of bringing him into the world of writing hymns.

Matt Boswell: Yeah, I do feel a passion to try to get the guys that I read — to pull them into writing songs for the church. I think the greatest hymnwriters could be Dever, Packer, Piper, Carson. I do hope that those guys would take what the Lord’s given them in commentary and in theological aptitude, and put it into poetry.

Bobby Gilles: Just like many of the old hymnwriters like Isaac Watts — pastors who write poetry?

Matt Boswell: That’s really all I’m trying to do. I’m trying to communicate, in song, the truths of God and man as revealed in Scripture, so that all those doctrines resonate in the hearts of the people.

Writing, Recording, Leading Worship: Michael Bleecker Of The Village

Michael Bleecker, Lauren Chandler and The Village Church Worship BandIf you haven’t heard of Michael Bleecker, you may have heard of a song he wrote called “Glorious Day,” which received a Dove award nomination and was crowned the 2012 ASCAP Christian Song of the Year. You should also know – as many of you do – that Michael Bleecker is the Worship Pastor at The Village Church, a multi-campus church in the Dallas, TX region that has produced several worship albums and is led by Matt Chandler, who is also president of the Acts 29 Network.

I caught up with Michael a couple weeks’ ago when he came to my hometown Louisville to record vocals for an upcoming worship album by The Gospel Coalition. Sit back and enjoy this My Song In The Night interview. Michael’s responses to questions about “Glorious Day,” how to pastor musicians, working with other songwriters and being part of a gospel-centered community will bless and inform you, as they did me. And look for the new EP by The Village, Look And See, here on iTunes.

Bobby Gilles: You were nominated for the “Song of the Year” Dove Award this year for “Glorious Day (Living He Loved Me)” along Mark Hall of Casting Crowns. How did that collaboration come about, and what was the relationship like with Casting Crowns?

Michael Bleecker: They were good to work with. The collaboration came with me working with Word Publishing, when I signed a single song agreement with them for “Glorious Day.” A lady from Word heard my song and sent it to Mark Hall, whom she knew from her days at EMI. and it went to his manager. It’s really cool how all this happened—I found this out later: Mark was working on the hymn “One Day” which is where “Glorious Day” comes from. He’s trying to work out the verses–he has some chorus material written which you now hear in “Glorious Day,” but he couldn’t figure out verses — he couldn’t figure out the melody.

So his manager told him there was this young worship leader in Dallas who had rewritten the melody if he wanted to hear it. He listened to it and said he immediately loved it. There were 120 songs that they were trying to work out for one slot on the next Casting Crowns album—everyone had submitted all these songs. He really wanted “One Day” to work but it wasn’t working, and then he heard my version.

He called me after they got out of the studio after recording it. He said although they’d never met, he loved the verses and had written choruses, and wanted to know if we could split it 50/50. I told him sure, yeah! The reach that they have is phenomenal—so it was easy for me to say “As long as you don’t mess with the content of those verses, because that’s the entirety of the gospel from birth to return in future glory.” It was a fun partnership for sure.

Bobby Gilles: And of course you recorded “Glorious Day” for God of Victory, The Village album. And I’d read somewhere I think that you said that album was six years in the making—not necessarily the recording process but just the germination of the songs that you’d been doing in worship services at The Village. Tell me about that process.

Michael Bleecker: I wrote some of the songs literally six years ago. The Village has been such a changing organization as far as growth — constantly more people coming in, which is great. But it means at various times we’ve had to build another campus or buy another campus and expand. So every time I’d budget for our new album, it would get nixed—and for good reason—because we needed to make space for all these people coming in. I was fine with it because I write for the church, so I want what is best for the church.

But I also wanted good recordings for my church. And they kept asking for recordings so I would have to give them board recordings from live services of these six year old songs. So when we finally came to the point of recording God of Victory, I just looked at my guys and said, “Some of these songs are outdated, some we haven’t sung in a long time but I would love to get them recorded well and breathe new life into some of these old songs.”

The Village: God of Victory “The Vision” from The Village Church on Vimeo.

Bobby Gilles: What does the songwriting process itself look like at The Village? Do you all host songwriting retreats and do a lot of collaboration with each other?

Michael Bleecker: We just started collaborating with the staff—so there’s four worship pastors on staff now and there’s an associate. And we’ve just started writing together—we’re writing for this new Advent season. So that’s sweet. But as far as retreats, we haven’t started that yet. But I am directing my gaze more toward my church. I’m still writing outside, but that was all that I was doing before. So it’s been a shift in having to say “No” to some of the guys that I do love writing with — and I’ll continue it at certain points but I’m putting The Village first, and we’re just now starting to collaborate together. So it’s a brand new season of that.

Bobby Gilles: What’s it like to be a pastor, not only of the congregation, but you’re pastoring musicians directly and all the issues that might go with the artistic temperament. What does it look like for you to pastor fellow songwriters, worship leaders and musicians?

Michael Bleecker: I don’t necessarily look at them as musicians—they’re just members of the Village Church. So when I walk with them it’s not necessarily musically. The volunteers we have at the church are crazy gifted so I don’t need to spend a lot of time with them musically. I expect them to grow musically on their own.

I would really to spend more time with each of them but we have about 40 volunteers, so the time I do get is very pointed. I ask questions like, “How’s your marriage?” “How’s your heart?” “How’s your personal life?” “Are you in love with Jesus and reading the scriptures?” I meet with each of the men individually once per quarter.

Also, I’ve chosen three women leaders in my group and then split up the women volunteers among them. My leaders go and meet with them and then email me back things to pray for them. And they really minister to those womens. So that’s been a really sweet process. I’ll do email encouragement to them and have their names written on my whiteboard in my office so I can pray for them. So those are just some of the ways that I can encourage and love on my musicians and volunteers.

Bobby Gilles: I would call you a very trinitarian songwriter — for example the God of Victory song “O God of Our Salvation,” which you wrote with Matt Boswell. The song brings each person of the trinity into focus. Why do you think we have so few strongly trinitarian songs in the church world, among all the contemporary worship songs?

Michael Bleecker: I think it’s because people don’t understand the trinity, so what you don’t understand you don’t write about. I think, as my pastor says, for instance, some people think of the Holy Spirit as that crazy uncle at the family reunion. And so people don’t spend time studying or thinking about who each person of the trinity is. So it was hard work for Boswell and I — although it was really fun work — to make the distinction but remember also that God is One. So, it was a fun challenge and one we took up because there’s so few new trinitarian songs. So, I think it’s just a lack of knowledge of the persons of the trinity.

Bobby Gilles: Earlier this year The Village released its second children’s album, Blessed Is the Man.  I interviewed Jeff Caps about that. Talk a little bit about the difference in writing and recording songs like “Walk Like Jesus Did” when you compare them to the “grown-up” songs of God of Victory.

Michael Bleecker: Well, a lot of those were written by our volunteers and Jeff, as you know. But these are guys that walk with our kids and love on our kids and disciple them and teach them. They’re in the trenches with the kids so they know what stirs their affections and gets them excited.

But they also know that some of our younger kids are not believers, and so they must teach them strong biblical truth mixed with a strong melody. That has been a bit of a challenge but also a huge joy. So, for me to entrust Caps with those albums — then to put that album in my car and to (I have three boys) have my two oldest boys singing “blessed is the man, who trusts in the Lord”, they are singing scripture! It couldn’t make a dad happier. There’s nothing that can make a dad happier than to have your 4 and 6 year old singing scripture word-for-word. That’s a huge win. So, we’re going to continue that. I think it is a challenge to write for that age group with those words. But it’s repetition, and once they get that into their heads we just pray that the Holy Spirit one day takes that memory and makes it reality.

Bobby Gilles: You all also released a single on iTunes earlier this year called “Come To Me,” featuring Lauren Chandler. Now Lauren has her own solo EP, The Narrow Place. Will we see more EP’s and singles from The Village Church or individual Village worship leaders in the future?

Michael Bleecker: Yeah, I think so. I kind of get beaten down by the extensive, hard road of doing a full-length 12 song album. It’s time consuming and very costly. I’ve found that just doing five or six of our songs takes a ton of the stress away from myself, my team and my family at home, and allows us to come out with more albums more frequently.

And honestly, this is just me on a personal level, I don’t really listen to full-length albums much anymore. And I know that’s a tragedy, but I think time has demanded that we listen to the things we really want to listen to. And although I’ll buy the whole album on iTunes, I only end up listening to five or six of them regularly. So I want to put our best stuff on one little album. Now we’ll still make full-length albums but I think the majority of our efforts, at least at our campus, is going to be put toward EPs.

In February I believe, Isaac Wimberley (our Dallas campus pastor) is coming out with his new album. It’s going to be a hip hop album called Warrior. It has two to three very corporate worship songs, one called “Warrior,” that we’re going to start leading in a couple months. It’s fantastic. He’s crazy gifted, I mean some of these songs are on the level of Tedashii, LeCrae. So I’m very excited about that. And then a few months after that—I think in the spring—our Denton worship pastor is coming out with his first album and that’s going to feel very “Denton,” very “Austin,” very artsy. It’s going to be sweet. We’re excited about it.

Bobby Gilles: The Village also about to release a live record. Are these songs you’ve been leading in the congregation awhile or are there any new songs?

Michael Bleecker: We’ve been leading these songs for probably two to three months now and so the church is ready for them, which I was excited about. So the congregation knew them and were ready to sing them. We recorded that last Wednesday and we’ll release Thursday, December 6th on iTunes. It will be five songs with a spoken word by Isaac Wimberly, which he wrote specifically for this project.

Bobby Gilles: Is this your first live record?

Michael Bleecker: It is, and I’ve wanted to do it for years. We finally found the window and took advantage of it. I can’t wait.

Bobby Gilles: And it will be out on iTunes?

Michael Bleecker: Yes; it’s called Look And See. Preview some of the songs and see our other albums here.

Ed. It’s now on iTunes. Get it here.

Bobby Gilles: You’re also in Louisville right now and involved with the first worship record for The Gospel Coalition, a collection of songs based from the Gospel of Luke. How did you become involved in that?

Michael Bleecker: I think it was a dinner that Ben Peays (Executive Director of The Gospel Coalition), Mike Cosper, Matt Boswell and I had with a few other worship pastors. Mike had already been working with Ben on this idea, and he pitched it to us: let’s write songs, let’s sing songs together on one album that will reflect what’s happening with The Gospel Coalition, and will tell the Story as portrayed in the Gospel of Luke. I got really excited about it. And then he called me and said he had a song they wanted me to song on. I’m honored to be here in Louisville—a complete honor to sing today on this project, which I believe will be released in time for the TGC 2013 National Conference.

Live Worship & Songwriting In Community: My David Santistevan Interview


David Santistevan is Worship Pastor at Pittsburgh’s Allison Park Church. He’s also a well-known blogger at DavidSantistevan.com, recently recognized by the readers of Worship Leader Magazine as one of the “best blogs for worship leaders.” And he’s the author of short, helpful e-books like Beyond Sunday: A Step-By-Step Guide For Creating And Sustaining A Vision For Your Worship Team, and his latest, The Worship Songwriter.

Today David and Allison Park Worship have released their first worship album, a live project called Undying Love. Get it on iTunes or their website (where you can get loops, chord charts and more). First, read this My Song In The Night interview to get insight’s into Allison Park’s songwriting culture and David’s thoughts on music for the church, writing, worship leading and more.

Bobby Gilles: One of the first things I noticed about Allison Park Worship: Undying Love is that you co-wrote songs here with several different writers, and that some of the other songs feature multiple writers besides yourself, working together. Is that kind of collaboration part of the DNA at Allison Park? How do you encourage it?

David Santistevan: It’s a relatively new development at our church. This project began as a songwriting retreat where we did a ton of collaborative songwriting. I had a desire to invest in the young songwriters on my team and this was a great way to do that.

Bobby Gilles: Tell me about the actual songwriting retreat that led to the birth of many of these songs. Was it a tightly structured retreat? Did you put some writers together intentionally, or was it more like “Lets lock all our writers together in a big room and see what happens?”

David Santistevan: The retreat was pretty structured – I grouped people up and sent them off for an hour at a time to co-write. Each of the writing sessions was unique – looking at upcoming sermon series’, writing on a particular theme, just worship and see what happens. Then, we came back together and shared our ideas. The time limit, structure, and accountability really helped us to become more creative and push our ideas.

Undying Love-Allison Park Worship album coverBobby Gilles: In several of the songs, like “Belong To You” and “Nothing Compares,” you’ve got that really singable, exciting verse-chorus-bridge format. Then in some of the others – the Wesley hymn “O For A Thousand Tongues To Sing,” for instance, where you contributed a chorus, you delve into the more traditional church song structure that leans heavily on verses. Can you describe some of the various things that each kind of format contributes to the overall experience of the album and the live worship setting?

David Santistevan: Our church loves hymns and we love simple, faith-filled, declarative choruses. “O For A Thousand Tongues” really captures that well. We want our worship experiences to involve the mind, emotions, and will. When our minds encounter truth, we respond with passion and love, choosing to engage in worship. We don’t just want to think, agree and watch. We engage our entire being the worship of God.

Bobby Gilles: Most of the lyrics are very much like a heart’s cry – simple declarations as well as requests to God like “Turn my eyes from what is earthly,” or “Take this open and willing soul.” Did you have to chisel these lyrics down or revise a lot to arrive at that degree of intimacy and simplicity, or was it more like “This lyric was my heart’s first response, so let’s not complicate it too much through revision?”

David Santistevan: I am a firm believer in revisions when it comes to worship songs. My heart’s first response is usually very passionate, but not always theologically sound or worth putting into song. We took the first drafts of these songs and went to work on the lyrics. I wanted to know – Are these songs worth singing about? Are they true? Do they glorify God? Do they lead people to Scripture?

Worship songwriting is a sacred responsibility. We shouldn’t just rely on our initial creativity. We need to be Bible-saturated and work hard to reflect God’s greater story.

Bobby Gilles: In songs like “We Can Not Stay Silent” and “To God Alone” I get a sense of “We’re not going to let the rocks cry out.” And it seems like the congregation is passionately involved as well. Is that pretty indicative of the worship climate at Allison Park? How do you cultivate that?

David Santistevan: Yes! We definitely have our Pentecostal roots ☺ One of our greatest values is engagement. We don’t want people to watch a great band. We want them to declare God’s promises over their life. So we work hard to explain why we raise our hands, sing, shout and participate in worship. I’m always exhorting the congregation that we’re all a part of the worship team, following our true worship leader, the Holy Spirit.

Bobby Gilles: Has this collection of songs been a part of your worship services for a while or was the live recording one of the first times that the congregation heard them?

David Santistevan: I would say 8 out of the 10 songs have been staples at our church. “God of the Impossible” and “Closer” are more ministry oriented songs (less congregational) so they were more unfamiliar. Our goal was to pick the best songs – the songs that people responded to.

Bobby Gilles: Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe this is your first album. Why begin with a live project rather than a studio release?

David Santistevan: We wanted to do a live project because we didn’t want this to just be about a band or an artist. This is the church. We all own this – from the pastors to the band to the congregation. These are “our” songs. This is “our” prayer. We felt a live recording was the best way to capture that.

Bobby Gilles: Many people are familiar with you through your blog, davidsantistevan.com, “a blog for worship leaders and musicians,” and e-books like The Worship Songwriter and Beyond Sunday. What’s your goal, in terms of the universal church and worship ministries – and how does that coincide with your goal as worship pastor of the local church in Pittsburgh?

David Santistevan: I love the local church and love serving God’s people in worship ministry. If I ever lose that, I have no business writing about it. My plan is to continue to live this out in ministry and create resources for other worship leaders. I have a passion to help the “unknown” worship leaders – those who feel “less than” because they don’t have big teams, big budgets, and loads of talent.

Bobby Gilles: What can we expect out of Allison Park Worship in the future, in terms of songwriting, recording and other endeavors?

David Santistevan: I plan to do another project in the future but am really looking forward to seeing this project live its life and watch God use it. We also look forward to leading worship at our church, at some events, and leading songwriting/worship team workshops.

 

Worship Leading, Writing, Mission & The Gospel: My Matt Papa Interview

Head shot of worship leader, singer-songwriter Matt PapaI met Matt Papa for the first time when he came to my hometown of Louisville two weeks’ ago to record a song for The Gospel Coalition‘s Songs of Luke project at Ear Candy Studios (where Kristen recorded our free The Whole Big Story, and where Sojourn has recorded albums like Before The Throne). I knew Matt was a gifted singer-songwriter and worship leader because of his albums, the testimony of mutual acquaintances and the words he has written or others have written about him in the blogosphere.

The meeting was not a disappointment. Matt is a humble, insightful, inquisitive artist, who passionately lives and speaks the gospel of Christ. We talked about his role as a staff worship leader at The Summit Church in North Carolina, his heart for mission, songwriting and more in this My Song In The Night interview:

Bobby Gilles: You’ve said that a song isn’t just lyrics or melody — it’s a sermon that people will remember. Can you talk a little more about that, and your philosophy behind worship songs?

Matt Papa: Plato said, “Let me make the songs of a nation and I care not who makes it laws.” That in itself says a lot. And Martin Luther, second to the preaching of the Word, placed a high emphasis on music. So, song is such a powerful medium, such an influencer of culture. When you transfer that over to the church world — songs for worship — every song is claiming truths about God. I try to encourage worship leaders to realize they are teaching people theology as they sing, whether they realize it or not, and whether they like it or not.

In I Corinthians 12, there’s no spiritual gift of “leading worship.” There’s no spiritual gift of “music.” Although it is a gift from God, I wouldn’t consider it a spiritual gift in terms of what is used in a corporate body gathering. So, with that said, if you get on a stage with an acoustic guitar you must figure out what you are out of that list, because you’re not just a singer. Your spiritual gift isn’t singing; it isn’t music. Usually the worship leader fits into that category of teacher, preacher, encourager—you’re simply doing that through song. I try to encourage people to take that very seriously because the things people will remember in their old age when they can’t remember their name are songs. Music just has a way of influencing and sticking with you.

Bobby Gilles: In some of your songs like “One Thing” and  “This Changes Everything,” you tell stories. Do you consider that part of your songwriting, that you’re a storyteller?

Matt Papa: Yeah, I’ve started doing more of that. I think that story is a powerful medium. I write a good bit of stuff that is corporate and some stuff that is not—I guess that would fall into the “not” category.

Bobby Gilles: When I think of your music, I also think of social justice. But it’s a social justice that’s rooted in the person and work of Jesus Christ very intentionally. Lyrics like

“If this is true this changes everything, if this is real, I’ve got to tell the world.”

Do you work hard to intentionally make that connection between the person and work of Christ and “we’ve got to do this”?

Album cover image for "This Changes Everything," a worship album by Matt PapaMatt Papa: Yeah, I do. The last album which included “This Changes Everything” –a lot of that album is centered around the response to the Lordship of Christ but also the love of Christ. In my writing, teaching and preaching, I try to root what I encourage and exhort people with not from a place of guilt, not from a place of “You have to do this,” but from a place of gratitude, a place of joy. It’s all in response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If that’s not there, then it’s just a lot of noise.

The gospel is the thing that melts the heart to bring a person to the place where they want to share Christ, where they want to serve the orphan, where they want to serve the widow. And that’s the goal, isn’t it: love the Lord your God with all Your heart. Love is a response. So, I do try to make a huge deal of the centrality of the cross and the centrality of the gospel. And also about the social justice: go and do.

I think we often fall into one ditch or the other, especially now in the age of the Gospel-centered movement. It’s hard to criticize a re-emphasis on the gospel, but if there’s one downside it’s that the imperatives are de-emphasized. So, it’s just “Remember the Gospel, look at Jesus and you’ll be okay.”

But there’s also this reality that we are sinners and we aren’t in heaven yet so the natural inclinations of our heart aren’t purified yet. So we have to kill our sin, we have to mortify our flesh, we have to love orphans and widows because we’re commanded to, regardless of whether we feel like it or not. James 1:27 says this is undefiled religion. And I want my ministry to have both/and. Obviously the other pitfall is just preaching the imperatives and legalism.

Bobby Gilles: Your latest song, “The Reward of His Suffering” exemplifies what we were talking about — social justice rooted in the gospel, and a great praise anthem as well. Tell me about that song and also about The Reward International.

Matt Papa: “The Reward of His Suffering” is based on a quote. I believe Count Zinzendorf might be credited with the phrase—I’m not sure exactly. But that phrase became a rally cry for the Moravian Missionary Movement in the 1700’s. And the phrase was “May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of his suffering.” So it was the worthiness of Christ that drove tons of missionary movement and zeal.

The story that popularized the phrase is that two young men were compelled to go to an island and share the gospel with people who hadn’t heard it before. They weren’t sure how they were going to get there so they decided to sell themselves into slavery. They made the decision to go, said goodbye to their family and friends—they were planning on leaving forever—and they got a the ship and set out. As the ship was pulling away one of the  men raised his arm and said, “May the Lamb who was slain receive the reward of his suffering.” It was an epic moment for seeing how the worthiness of Christ drives people to surrender.

When they got over there they were unable to sell themselves into slavery because they were white men and the slave owner didn’t allow it. So instead of going home, they stayed on the island and got normal jobs. And whenever they would see the slaves around town they would share the gospel with them. They just did whatever they could — that’s just such a cool part of the story because that’s what a Christian does.

When you open your Bible and read the command “Go into all nations and make disciples” and you’re a 10th grader or a stay-at-home mom you  think, “How in the world am I going to do that?” But you say “I’m going  to figure it out.” And that’s what they did. So they stayed and made that their ambition. Fast forward 50 years later and when the next Christian missionary showed up after they’d served there for 50 years, there were 13,000 believers on the island.

So I just wanted to set that to music and put the gospel in it. I’ve heard a lot of cool stories from people who have heard “The Reward Of His Suffering” and they say “I feel called to missions now, and this song has been really encouraging me.”

But I think that’s just such a crucial truth to keep in front of us all — those of us who are on mission: what propels us ultimately is not that we might help people avoid hell, although that’s amazing. Ultimately, it’s about more voices around the throne — it’s more praise for Jesus, it’s more “He’s worthy.” It’s the worthiness of Christ that will drive mission. I think Piper said “When the flame of worship burns with the heat of God’s true worth, the light of missions will shine to the darkest people on the earth.”

The Reward International is an organization that my wife and I are in the process of starting. I started an orphanage about five years ago and we have some other ministries and missions that we’re a part of. So this is an effort that she and I are forming and creating, to leverage my ministry, music and our lives for the sake of the nations.

Bobby Gilles: Another thing that you do—you’re a worship leader in the Summit Church worship ministry. Earlier this year they released a worship album, Jesus In My Placethe title cut of which you wrote with Jonathan Welch. What are some of the differences in leading and writing with a church ministry rather than as a solo artist?

Matt Papa: I would say one of the main things is—as I write music as a solo artist, there’s a little more liberty as to what I can do and perhaps say and that kind of thing. And when it comes to writing for a local church it is more specific, it’s honed in, it’s very focused. And I have certain people in mind, you know, “Are these people going to sing this.” It’s helped me in my writing a whole lot in terms of writing corporate songs because I have this 40 year old guy in my church in mind, you know, “Is this guy going to sing this.”

Bobby Gilles: I noticed you co-wrote songs with several others on Jesus In My Place. Does your role in co-writing change depending on who you’re writing with? Or are you always, say, the lyric guy or the melody guy?

Matt Papa: My role does change sometimes. I would say that I’m probably better with melody, but that definitely flexes. I’m usually quickest with melodies, but in writing for corporate worship especially, I care more about the lyric so I wrestle with that a lot more.

Bobby Gilles: Do you all, at The Summit, have any songwriting retreats or workshops? How do those go?

Matt Papa: We do, and they are great. We’ve been doing those for about 2 ½ years now. We usually do a couple a year. For one, we’ll go off somewhere. Then the other we’ll do sort of low-key at the church. But they’ve really helped our guys become better writers. We bring in some people to speak — usually two or three people — to teach a devotional, or session on songwriting, or something more philosophical. Then we’ll just break up into groups and co-write. We’ll have the speakers co-write with our guys — that’s been such a huge thing. With the last label I was on, Centricity Music, we did a lot of this kind of thing and I wanted to bring this in for our church. Our guys have gotten a lot better and are excited about writing.

Bobby Gilles: Are these day-long retreats?

Matt Papa: Usually they’re weekends — two or three days.

Bobby Gilles: So when people co-write at these things, are they assigned to a specific group?

Matt Papa: Yeah, usually the writing experience in the room is varied. So when that’s the case, my preference is to do groups of three people. The issue with two people is that if you have one experienced and one not, then one person might be driving the ship too much. So yeah, I like to do groups of three—with more experienced writers I might do groups of two. I try to be sensitive to knowing who the great lyricists or melody writers are so I can set up the groups accordingly. I try to be careful with the inexperienced guys — if you have a “Type A” person you encourage them to sit back and listen a little more. So I try to coach the guys in that.

Bobby Gilles: I’ve also noticed you’ve done a lot of Scripture songs. Do you find it easier to compose music to a Bible verse or is that actually tougher, given that they don’t rhyme or utilize meter like modern English songs do?

Matt Papa: I think it is harder, especially if you want to call it a scripture song because you have to stick really closely to the lyrics. You might have some liberty, but it is a good bit harder.

Bobby Gilles: How do you do it? Do you just meditate on the passage?

Matt Papa: Yeah, usually it happens when I’m just reading the word, and a light bulb comes on when something arrests me. Usually I’ll write about that — when I’ve had this experience with this verse. That kind of naturally flows forth in song and melody.

Bobby Gilles: So, we’re here in Louisville and you’re from North Carolina. What are you doing here this week and how did you get involved with that?

Matt Papa: The Gospel Coalition is making an album based on the Gospel of Luke. When I heard about it, Matt Boswell and I got together—we often write hymns together. I had this idea to take Luke 15 (it’s divided into 4 sections—3 parables: the lost sheep, the lost coin, and two sections for the lost son.) So, we wrote a 4-verse hymn each representing a different parable. We loved the idea of writing a hymn that told the story but could be used in corporate worship. It was daunting but we knocked it out. The Gospel Coalition wanted to use it on the CD so I’m here to sing on the recording. You can look for the CD in April, about the same time as their 2013 National Conference in Orlando. 

Sojourn Music’s First (And Really First) Live Album: My Mike Cosper Interview

Yesterday I interviewed Mike Cosper, Pastor of Worship & Arts at our church, Sojourn Community. In this short audio interview you’ll learn all about the brand new Sojourn worship album Come Ye Sinners: Sojourn Music Live At Memorial Auditorium, which you can preorder right here. The album officially releases Tuesday, November 20.

Download this interview  from the free SojournMusic.com Radio podcast on iTunes, or listen in the player below:

When Does 3=4? Find Out In My Interview With The Band Interstates

Interstates
Interstates is an instrumental rock band, most of whom are also fellow members in Sojourn Music with Kristen and me.

Now they’ve released a new album, 3+4, my favorite Interstates record yet. You can buy it for only $4.99 on iTunes today.

Then listen to this interview I conducted with Interstates members Alex O’Nan, Neil Degraide and Brian Meurer. You can listen by downloading it from our podcast, SojournMusic.com Radio. Or just click the “play” button below: